A small fandom rant
Jun. 9th, 2006 07:58 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
katekatWHY, oh WHY do people insist that Spike deliberately fought for his soul? Did anyone actually watch the same TV show I did?
Ok, I know, even the writers put that into Buffy's mouth - the whole "he fought for his redemption" line (or maybe it was Willow's? Someone's? I didn't really pay attention that much to S7, so forgive me if I screw that up).
HOWEVER, I was paying attention when Spike got on his bike and went away, after his horrible attempt to convince Buffy she loved him. I was paying attention to what he said to the demony guy in africa, but in case you'd like a refresher:
His last line from 6.19:
SPIKE: Get nice and comfy, Slayer. I'll be back. And when I do ... things are gonna change.
And his lines from inside the demon cave in 6.22:
SPIKE: So you'll give me what I want. Make me what I was. So Buffy can get what she deserves.
DEMON: Very well. (Spike watches the demon nervously.)
DEMON: We will return... (The demon's hand reaches out toward Spike's chest.)
DEMON: ...your soul.
The hand touches his chest and it glows fiery yellow-orange. Spike's eyes glow the same color. He throws back his head and screams.
[ from here ]
What she DESERVES? How is that "give me a soul so I can be soulmates with her?" In my world, it's not. It's a vampire who is angry and jilted, who wants revenge on the woman that made him feel that way. OH, and wants the chip out. He says "make me what I was" ... the implication there is get rid of the damn chip, not 'give me a soul'. And he says it like he's angry and annoyed and ready to tear Buffy's head off along with the rest. How does that become Spike toddling off going "I'll get a soul to win Buffy over"?? And why is it so important for so many fans that it does? The vamp's way cooler with out the damn soul, if you asked me.
And fine, so Joss (or, in the realm of the show, the demon that cursed him with it) gave Spike a bright and shiny soul so he could be tortured. And fine, technically he fought for it. But it wasn't what he thouht he was fighting for! Do you, when they hand you the rinky-dink colored eraser prize off the bottom of the shelf at the fairgrounds, the consolation prize when you were aiming for the big stuffed panda bear that's taller than you are and that you'd have to strap to the car on the way home, do you say "I was trying for the consolation prize?" NO! You say "I was trying for the panda bear, and all I got was this rinky-dink eraser!"
I'd just like for people to remember that about Spike! Remember that he was trying to get the damn chip extracted, and all he got was the stupid soul. Now that should go on a t-shirt: "All I wanted was my chip removed, and instead I got this stupid soul." (ok, that one probably only amuses me.)
ETA:
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif){kind=small}
elizabuffy points out that I am so not up on my S7 lore, and I missed the parts (or wishfully ignored them) where Spike in his crazy rants and raves admits to deliberately going after his soul. I always said cannon should end in S5.
no subject
Date: 2006-06-10 01:07 am (UTC)and that'd be a sweet shirt, btw
no subject
Date: 2006-06-10 01:15 am (UTC)*grin*
no subject
Date: 2006-06-10 01:07 am (UTC)I agree with you, when I saw the episode I took "give her what she deserves" to be he wanted to kill her. Although I can sort of see the intepretation that he was trying to make himself worthy of her love...which is a whole other issue because she treated him like crap for nearly two seasons but...
no subject
Date: 2006-06-10 01:19 am (UTC)Anyway, yeah, the whole last two seasons drive me nuts. Sigh.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2006-06-10 01:49 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-06-10 05:09 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-06-10 01:55 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-06-10 05:18 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-06-10 02:15 am (UTC)And yes, I know that he *says* he went after his soul in S7,and I'm pretty sure I've read that Joss says they *always* meant Spike to go after his soul, and all I can say is, "Retcon." Definite retcon.
no subject
Date: 2006-06-10 05:21 am (UTC)And yeah. Definite retcon. This is also why I hate season 7. :D
*hugs you in sympathy*
(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2006-06-10 03:04 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-06-10 05:24 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-06-10 07:21 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-06-10 05:12 pm (UTC)(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2006-06-10 03:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-06-10 05:13 pm (UTC)GRRR. He was an angry vamp! Not a "oh, i'll go get a soul" vamp! I suppose if you're a Spuffy shipper you go for the "he wanted it" option, and if you're not, you don't.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2006-06-10 05:00 pm (UTC)Sorry, have to disagree. Here's the transcript from the episode where Buffy figures out he has his soul back, (you know, that awesome scene in the church) and he says that he went looking for his soul.
- Miranda
BUFFY
This is all you get. I'm listening. Tell me what happened.
SPIKE
I tried to find it, of course.
BUFFY
Find what?
SPIKE
The spark. The missing... the piece that fit. That would make me fit. Because you didn't want... (starts to cry) God, I can't... Not with you looking.
Spike stands and walks away to a nearby window. He stands there, mostly in shadow, his body directed away from her. He looks back over his shoulder at her.
SPIKE
I dreamed of killing you.
Keeping an eye on him, Buffy bends down to pick up a large splinter from the broken pews at her feet to use as a stake, if necessary. Spike starts pacing.
SPIKE
I think they were dreams. So weak. Did you make me weak, thinking of you, holding myself, and spilling useless buckets of salt over your... ending? Angel—he should've warned me. He makes a good show of forgetting, but it's here, in me, all the time. (walks around toward her from behind) The spark. I wanted to give you what you deserve, and I got it. They put the spark in me and now all it does is burn.
Buffy's face shows shock, disbelief and, finally, comprehension.
BUFFY
Your soul.
SPIKE
(laughs) Bit worse for lack of use.
Buffy turns to face him.
BUFFY
You got your soul back. How?
SPIKE
It's what you wanted, right? (looking at the ceiling) It's what you wanted, right? (presses his fingers to his temples, looks down, and walks toward the altar). And—and now everybody's in here, talking. Everything I did...everyone I— and him... and it... the other, the thing beneath—beneath you. It's here too. Everybody. They all just tell me go... go... (looks back over his shoulder to Buffy) to hell.
BUFFY
Why? Why would you do that—
SPIKE
Buffy, shame on you. Why does a man do what he mustn't? For her. To be hers. To be the kind of man who would nev— (looks away) to be a kind of man.
Spike walks toward the 6-foot-tall crucifix altarpiece at the front of the chapel. Sounds like he's quoting something.
SPIKE
She shall look on him with forgiveness, and everybody will forgive and love. He will be loved.
no subject
Date: 2006-06-10 05:10 pm (UTC)Although, wishfully speaking, I want to go with Mish's comment (recopied: Of course once Spike had a soul and was crazyinthebasement (which I assume is when he was ranting and raving?!) he'd be trying to solidify a reason or reasons for him to now got soul (*teehee*) because he HAS a soul and he is crazy because of it. And if you've done so much bad stuff as Spike did w/out soul then with soul he's obviously going to become ashamed of these things, even if he doesn't admit it to ANYONE, and he's going to be attempting to figure out backwards why he's in the situation he's in, ie. having a soul. If you've got a soul it's easier to work backwards from this position and justify the soul by saying you wanted it for redemption, not because it was kinda a mistake and you didn't ask the Main Demon Guy sensibly to have the chip removed (stupid Spike!) but instead went for Poetic Effect or some shit like that and asked for what Buffy deserved. Obviously what two people think she deserves is different, and even one person, different at different points (for after Spike was besouled, and all Buffylovedup it is unlikely he wished to tear Buffy's throat out after all). The going crazy in the basement, I would suggest, is both Spike working through his past and attempting to justify it.
no subject
Date: 2006-06-10 11:17 pm (UTC)But some time later I sorta came to a conclusion on the whole soul thing. When a vampire gets a soul put in he stops being able to think like a vampire without a soul would, stops being able to feel like a souless vampire can. It's part of what drives them crazy.
So Souless!Spike could have wanted to just go back to being S2 Spike, but Souled!Spike can't understand that desire, because he doesn't even remember it that way, the soul doesn't let him.
Or something. It's a fanwank. :)
no subject
Date: 2006-06-11 03:04 am (UTC)I like it! That's a great theory! And hey, far more reasonable than some of the fancommentary I've seen out there (and heads above mine, anyway)
no subject
Date: 2006-06-10 11:41 pm (UTC)And while I've always accepted that he did indeed go looking for his soul as the misdirect is a staple of television, I do think you're onto something and really like
no subject
Date: 2006-06-11 03:06 am (UTC)And I understand Joss doing the misdirect/bait and switch thing, I just always though the switch was pulled on Spike too. Funny how a few words one way or the other can make such an impression!
no subject
Date: 2006-06-10 11:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-06-10 11:55 pm (UTC)(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2006-06-11 01:14 am (UTC)Heeeee.
I much prefer soulless Spike who stopped himself from killing Buffy with a gun because she was sad and sniffly and asked if he could help and then sat quietly beside her. Or soulless Spike who babysat Dawn, or joked around with Xander or told Anya she was special and beautiful.
He didn't need a soul *read - guilty conscience* he already had one.
*yis. All About Spike*
:)
no subject
Date: 2006-06-11 03:12 am (UTC)Darn Joss and his Joss-y-ness sometimes.
Which is why I, too, prefer pre-soul Spike. The gun scene is frigging fabulous. One of my favs from that season. And we get great quippy lines like Spike's add-ins in Walk through the Fire in OMWF.
Also I love your fics so much, because you take that into account. *hugs you for that*
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2006-06-11 03:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-06-11 03:15 am (UTC)And even though if you look at some of the other comments, people are citing S7 stuff to basically prove me wrong, I'm just going to firmly stick to S6 as cannon and S7 as Spike's crazy justification phase. So welcome to the croud!
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2006-06-13 11:35 am (UTC) - Expand(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2006-06-11 05:32 am (UTC)What Spike mostly asks Lurky for is to be made what he was 'before'. That could be referring to the chip or it could be referring to being as he was when he was human. Now we know Spike didn't much like himself as a human so it is unlikely he was asking to actually be human, so I take that as asking for a vital part of himself that he knows he had when he was human and doesn't have now.
After the bathroom scene in SR, Spike is very confused, very upset - ranting in his crypt, wondering what is wrong with him. He knows he is missing understanding what is going on and he wants to understand - and I think he was thinking back to being a human and remembering that for all his faults William did seem to understand that sort of thing. So I think he went looking for understanding - not really realising that that understanding meant a soul. Maybe Lurky has rather misleading advertising blurb
'Vampires: Haunted by memories of it all being so much clearer when you were human? Get what you need to understand your loved one but keep your vampire skills! No mess, no fuss, full money back guarantee'
No mention of souls or chips, but Spike would head off like a shot after SR for something like that. And such a mislead, a gift that bites back on the receiver, would be in the tradition of demons like the vengeance demons.
So no, I don't think he went to get the chip out.
no subject
Date: 2006-06-11 05:51 am (UTC)Although I see where you're coming from, especially after S7, my read on most of those situations is more that Spike, at the end of S6, was incredibly frustrated that he couldn't figure out how to be a man in love with a woman and couldn't properly be a vampire. Him asking for what he was "before" to me means that he wanted to go back to being a vampire (also indicated by his convo with Clem before he leaves, where he complains about the chip holding him back from what he should be). I agree with you that he doesn't ever want to return to the person he truly was as a human, which is why when he says "before" I think he's talking about his hedonistic vampire ways -- essentially being unchipped.
Like I said, though, we're going to have to agree to disagree, because I have no illusions I'm going to change your mind.
Also, though, as to why he never goes to the demon before - he was never in such a crisis before. That can prove my perspective as well as yours. The demon's trials aren't anything to be undertaken lightly, and Spike was surviving, to a certain extent, with the situation until it did come to a head with Buffy. And at that point he took desperate measures... it's just the *what* of those desperate measures we disagree on.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2006-06-11 05:48 am (UTC)Instead I'm going to propose two points why I think the soul works for me:
1) the universe is somehow connected; going through these mystical trials to remove a behaviour modification chip, well that doesn't work for me. A chip that was implanted in a scientific way needs a scientific removal, otherwise it's not going to take. Adding a soul is something mystical though - the two somehow connect.
2) I'm quite happy to believe that Spike didn't think through the implications that he was getting a soul, or that he set out intending to get back his soul, but I'm of the opinion that deep down (and here's where we get into the kind of territory where it's all up to personal interpretation) the kind of deep down where he was so overwhelmed and distraught by his actions, the desire to get the soul *was* his motivation. 'Give her what she deserves' - well to be a better man, because while he was a vampire without a chip, he also once was a man with a soul. Heh. ::rolls eyes::
SPIKE: Get nice and comfy, Slayer. I'll be back. And when I do ... things are gonna change.
From my perspective, this is the Spike who is very good at talking big without the follow-through that's expected.
no subject
Date: 2006-06-11 06:00 am (UTC)And those are really interesting points to think about! Especially the whole mystical/scientific dichotomy. Interesting too though, because Spike had tried scientific means (sort of) by trying to waylay Riley's doctor, and then didn't have it work for him.
I completely agree with you about the Spike!bluster though, in the sense that it's total and pure old!Spike!bluster, trying to be the big bad.
And as far as what was behind the bluster, well...I may hold a belief in my heart of hearts, but it just goes right along side all of my UC ships... which is what fandom is for.
Thanks for responding darling! I love a good think, especially when people disagree with me!
no subject
Date: 2006-06-11 08:17 am (UTC)SPIKE: So you'll give me what I want. Make me what I was. So Buffy can get what she deserves.
Spike says "Make me what I was." But Spike was never a souled vampire. There are only two things he could have been asking for there - either he wanted the demon to make him human again, or he wanted the demon to make him a fully functioning evil vampire again.
There is simply no way, with the dialogue as written, that he could have been asking for his soul back.
no subject
Date: 2006-06-11 02:37 pm (UTC)(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2006-06-11 10:23 am (UTC)Trouble is as you found when doing this post out the writers were very much falling into the 'he went and purposefully got a soul to be a better man' camp. Something they refered to time and time again in season seven, and I for one excepted that. It makes his journey to becoming a redeemed hero all the more satisfying for me personally.
no subject
Date: 2006-06-11 06:41 pm (UTC)And thank you lady, for letting me know your opinion so gently and sweetly! As I tried to indicate (but probably not terribly clear) I do realize that cannonically S7 Spike clearly went and got his soul on purpose, and that my fantasies the other way will just have to remain with me as a fandom belief, not a cannon one.
*hugs*
no subject
Date: 2006-06-11 11:08 am (UTC)If all Spike wanted to do was hurt Buffy, big surprise, he could already do it.
The chip didn't work on Buffy since s6. At all.
If he wanted to kill her, he could have killed her a dozen times over.
And the main reason that I'd hate the idea of the chip being something he was tricked into, is because it'd lower the meaning of the soul. To me, Spike choosing his soul is part of his ongoing redemption. And if it had been some trick or something, part of the value would be gone.
And before you start about her friends. Spike isn't Angel. He's not into torturing Buffy by hurting her friends. That'd be an Angel thing to do. If Spike wanted to hurt Buffy, he'd kill her himself, and he didn't want to do that. He didn't want to hurt her, he felt guilty enough after the attempted rape as we're clearly shown in the scene with Clem, where he talks about not understanding why he stopped, why he didn't go on after Buffy kicked him off, because he just can't understand why he's feeling guilt when he shouldn't be able to do so.
Spike wanted to stop being half, he wanted some clarity and he thought the soul would give him that. (he just didn't really have a clue what he was getting into, since he didn't know souled Angel enough to know that Angel is still Angelus, just locked on a leash) And it's probably the best part of s6, his choice to become better, to become more than he was. In fact, Spike's soul and his love for Buffy are what makes s7 worth watching.
no subject
Date: 2006-06-11 02:31 pm (UTC)God I hate this heat, only realized just now that I wrote chip when I meant soul...
((when is lj finally going to give us an editing function for comments))
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2006-06-11 12:37 pm (UTC)* plot twist* or think it's a retcon you can't get away from the fact that that's what happened and was referred to over and over again in season 7.
David Fury got rather peeved in Sacramento last year when someone argued with him that Spike went for the chip to be removed! In fact he flat out told them that they were wrong, that it was always the intention to have Spike win back his soul not be tricked into it and that, since he wrote a lot of that stuff, he should know. I'm rather on ,Mr Fury's side here. It was ambiguous at the end of season 6, the show's big cliffhanger , but from the first crazy basement scene in season 7 it was clear. Spike had sought and got his soul, slipperier than a greased weasel though that soul may have been.
And as many more eloquent than myself have already pointed out Spike didn't need a soul to hurt/punish Buffy, his chip didn't work on her !
Now for a realy good * plot twist* " Make me what I was" could have turned him into William. I'm rather glad that it didn't.
no subject
Date: 2006-06-11 06:50 pm (UTC)And I understand that Joss has always said that Spike went to get his soul, and it makes sense that David Fury would also concur - they were the writers. It's hard to muddle through what we've got when so often our "cannon" is spelled out not in the actual show, but in the commentary from the writers. Because while one cannot argue with Joss most of the time, the way they had Spike play S6 does leave room for interpretation.
Frankly, I didn't expect to be heralded, so I kind of had a little rant in my little journal and didn't expect so many thoughts on this. But thanks for commenting regardless.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2006-06-12 03:44 pm (UTC);)
I don't care if he went looking for the soul or not. I'd still do him.
- Miranda
no subject
Date: 2007-04-01 10:37 pm (UTC)Whatever the writers may have added later, it was quite clear *at the time* that Spike was going for revenge.
Spike fans want him to have the soul voluntarily so he's "redeemed" and can be Buffy's soul mate.
Basically, they want to emasculate him, make Spike her lap dog, instead of the predator he is.
Yeah, still annoyed, years later.
no subject
Date: 2007-04-02 11:39 pm (UTC)