A small fandom rant

[katekat]

WHY, oh WHY do people insist that Spike deliberately fought for his soul? Did anyone actually watch the same TV show I did?

Ok, I know, even the writers put that into Buffy's mouth - the whole "he fought for his redemption" line (or maybe it was Willow's? Someone's? I didn't really pay attention that much to S7, so forgive me if I screw that up).

HOWEVER, I was paying attention when Spike got on his bike and went away, after his horrible attempt to convince Buffy she loved him. I was paying attention to what he said to the demony guy in africa, but in case you'd like a refresher:

His last line from 6.19:
SPIKE: Get nice and comfy, Slayer. I'll be back. And when I do ... things are gonna change.

And his lines from inside the demon cave in 6.22:
SPIKE: So you'll give me what I want. Make me what I was. So Buffy can get what she deserves.

DEMON: Very well.  (Spike watches the demon nervously.)

DEMON: We will return...  (The demon's hand reaches out toward Spike's chest.)

DEMON: ...your soul.

The hand touches his chest and it glows fiery yellow-orange. Spike's eyes glow the same color. He throws back his head and screams.
[ from here ]

What she DESERVES?  How is that "give me a soul so I can be soulmates with her?"  In my world, it's not.  It's a vampire who is angry and jilted, who wants revenge on the woman that made him feel that way.  OH, and wants the chip out.  He says "make me what I was" ... the implication there is get rid of the damn chip, not 'give me a soul'.  And he says it like he's angry and annoyed and ready to tear Buffy's head off along with the rest.  How does that become Spike toddling off going "I'll get a soul to win Buffy over"??   And why is it so important for so many fans that it does?  The vamp's way cooler with out the damn soul, if you asked me.

And fine, so Joss (or, in the realm of the show, the demon that cursed him with it) gave Spike a bright and shiny soul so he could be tortured.  And fine, technically he fought for it.  But it wasn't what he thouht he was fighting for!  Do you, when they hand you the rinky-dink colored eraser prize off the bottom of the shelf at the fairgrounds, the consolation prize when you were aiming for the big stuffed panda bear that's taller than you are and that you'd have to strap to the car on the way home, do you say "I was trying for the consolation prize?"  NO!  You say "I was trying for the panda bear, and all I got was this rinky-dink eraser!"

I'd just like for people to remember that about Spike!  Remember that he was trying to get the damn chip extracted, and all he got was the stupid soul.  Now that should go on a t-shirt:  "All I wanted was my chip removed, and instead I got this stupid soul."  (ok, that one probably only amuses me.)

ETA: elizabuffy points out that I am so not up on my S7 lore, and I missed the parts (or wishfully ignored them) where Spike in his crazy rants and raves admits to deliberately going after his soul. I always said cannon should end in S5.

Comments

[melcappa.livejournal.com]

I compleltely agree. The spike having a soul thing just kinda happened.Spike was kinda annoyed-- he wasn't looking for a soul at all. *kudos*

and that'd be a sweet shirt, btw

[shannon730.livejournal.com]

It's because if you want to write a nice, happy, fluffy Buffy/Spike fic it's a lot easier if Spike wanted a soul. Less work if he wanted to be good. Same with a Willow/Spike, or Spike/Xander fic I suppose. Easier to explain their acceptance of him if he chose to be good.

I agree with you, when I saw the episode I took "give her what she deserves" to be he wanted to kill her. Although I can sort of see the intepretation that he was trying to make himself worthy of her love...which is a whole other issue because she treated him like crap for nearly two seasons but...

[katekat]

heee! Thanks! It's just frustrating, you know? I was reading some meta today that was railing against Xander and then put Spike's soul as an example of people looking for change or something, and it made me a little annoyed. I can understand when ppl do it in fic, but what happend in cannon did happen.

*grin*

[katekat]

On the one hand, I understand the whole fic perspective (although I've managed to stay away from 90% of spuffy, *whew*). But I was actually railing about it because someone in *meta* was complaining about Xander being a slacker, and comparing him to Spike who went and got his soul... and even though I'm not the biggest Xander fan on the planet... it just irked me. It's fine to change what you need to change of cannon for fic (well, I wish that we didn't have to, but we've all done it), but when you're actually *talking* about the show? At least get the facts straight, you know?

Anyway, yeah, the whole last two seasons drive me nuts. Sigh.

[shannon730.livejournal.com]

It's because it was never said explicitly so they're choosing to intepret it as she deserves Spike with a soul.

Of course, I've given up on people even trying to follow canon.

[xanzpet.livejournal.com]

Oh, praise JEBUS! Someone else finally said it! YAY! I no longer feel alone. ::sniffs::

[elementalv.livejournal.com]

What's the term? "Retcon?" That's what S7 was about with Spike claiming to have deliberately gone after his soul. He didn't, though, and I've been bitching about that particular idiocy of canon since early S7.

[that_mireille]

We read the same meta today. (I did not *finish* reading the meta because I recognize when I'm going to be irrationally angry. I then went to dinner and inflicted a pro-Xander rant on my father. ;) )

And yes, I know that he *says* he went after his soul in S7,and I'm pretty sure I've read that Joss says they *always* meant Spike to go after his soul, and all I can say is, "Retcon." Definite retcon.

[supermom20.livejournal.com]

James Marsters has even said that played it as going to return to the old Spike, because that's what he was told. When he saw the script, he went "WTF?"

[katekat]

*hugs you* you're SO not alone lady!! Don't you worry!

[katekat]

Ah, retcon! I had to go look that up... but it's way too appropriate. Damn Joss and his annoying tend towards inconsistency and towards explaining cannon not actually IN cannon, but in the commentary. I didn't even notice the whole 'he fought for it' opinion was held by anybody until a couple of months ago (clueless me, I suppose)! Sigh.

[katekat]

LOL. Notice I didn't even *start* on the perception of Xander? I was reduced to wordlessness by that whole thing - it was all just so sad and wrong. I'm so right there with you. Xander rocks!

And yeah. Definite retcon. This is also why I hate season 7. :D

*hugs you in sympathy*

[katekat]

Ok now, that's just .... frustrating! I mean, Joss thought he was so clever, but there's a difference between clever and semi-linear plot!

[mishloran.livejournal.com]

I would argue your edit in your favour. Observe! Of course once Spike had a soul and was crazyinthebasement (which I assume is when he was ranting and raving?!) he'd be trying to solidify a reason or reasons for him to now got soul (*teehee*) because he HAS a soul and he is crazy because of it. And if you've done so much bad stuff as Spike did w/out soul then with soul he's obviously going to become ashamed of these things, even if he doesn't admit it to ANYONE, and he's going to be attempting to figure out backwards why he's in the situation he's in, ie. having a soul. If you've got a soul it's easier to work backwards from this position and justify the soul by saying you wanted it for redemption, not because it was kinda a mistake and you didn't ask the Main Demon Guy sensibly to have the chip removed (stupid Spike!) but instead went for Poetic Effect or some shit like that and asked for what Buffy deserved. Obviously what two people think she deserves is different, and even one person, different at different points (for after Spike was besouled, and all Buffylovedup it is unlikely he wished to tear Buffy's throat out after all). The going crazy in the basement, I would suggest, is both Spike working through his past and attempting to justify it. Doesn't Angel say he had many MANY years to atone and yet Spike did it in three days or something? I recall. (And then don't they talk about fighting in jello at some point? **Mish's brain goes off on one...**)

[dwg.livejournal.com]

I always figured it was more than just getting the freaking chip removed, it was so Spike could go back to hating Buffy and get his evil back on. The whole soul thing was a case of "be careful what you wish for" and in Jossverse, we all know how well that turns out.

[(Anonymous)]

Hey lady -

Sorry, have to disagree. Here's the transcript from the episode where Buffy figures out he has his soul back, (you know, that awesome scene in the church) and he says that he went looking for his soul.

- Miranda

BUFFY
This is all you get. I'm listening. Tell me what happened.

SPIKE
I tried to find it, of course.

BUFFY
Find what?

SPIKE
The spark. The missing... the piece that fit. That would make me fit. Because you didn't want... (starts to cry) God, I can't... Not with you looking.

Spike stands and walks away to a nearby window. He stands there, mostly in shadow, his body directed away from her. He looks back over his shoulder at her.

SPIKE
I dreamed of killing you.

Keeping an eye on him, Buffy bends down to pick up a large splinter from the broken pews at her feet to use as a stake, if necessary. Spike starts pacing.

SPIKE
I think they were dreams. So weak. Did you make me weak, thinking of you, holding myself, and spilling useless buckets of salt over your... ending? Angel—he should've warned me. He makes a good show of forgetting, but it's here, in me, all the time. (walks around toward her from behind) The spark. I wanted to give you what you deserve, and I got it. They put the spark in me and now all it does is burn.

Buffy's face shows shock, disbelief and, finally, comprehension.

BUFFY
Your soul.

SPIKE
(laughs) Bit worse for lack of use.

Buffy turns to face him.

BUFFY
You got your soul back. How?

SPIKE
It's what you wanted, right? (looking at the ceiling) It's what you wanted, right? (presses his fingers to his temples, looks down, and walks toward the altar). And—and now everybody's in here, talking. Everything I did...everyone I— and him... and it... the other, the thing beneath—beneath you. It's here too. Everybody. They all just tell me go... go... (looks back over his shoulder to Buffy) to hell.

BUFFY
Why? Why would you do that—

SPIKE
Buffy, shame on you. Why does a man do what he mustn't? For her. To be hers. To be the kind of man who would nev— (looks away) to be a kind of man.

Spike walks toward the 6-foot-tall crucifix altarpiece at the front of the chapel. Sounds like he's quoting something.

SPIKE
She shall look on him with forgiveness, and everybody will forgive and love. He will be loved.

[katekat]

Right, you're totally right, and that's what Elizabuffy pulled out for me too. I know I'm wrong...

Although, wishfully speaking, I want to go with Mish's comment (recopied: Of course once Spike had a soul and was crazyinthebasement (which I assume is when he was ranting and raving?!) he'd be trying to solidify a reason or reasons for him to now got soul (*teehee*) because he HAS a soul and he is crazy because of it. And if you've done so much bad stuff as Spike did w/out soul then with soul he's obviously going to become ashamed of these things, even if he doesn't admit it to ANYONE, and he's going to be attempting to figure out backwards why he's in the situation he's in, ie. having a soul. If you've got a soul it's easier to work backwards from this position and justify the soul by saying you wanted it for redemption, not because it was kinda a mistake and you didn't ask the Main Demon Guy sensibly to have the chip removed (stupid Spike!) but instead went for Poetic Effect or some shit like that and asked for what Buffy deserved. Obviously what two people think she deserves is different, and even one person, different at different points (for after Spike was besouled, and all Buffylovedup it is unlikely he wished to tear Buffy's throat out after all). The going crazy in the basement, I would suggest, is both Spike working through his past and attempting to justify it.

[katekat]

Brilliant!! You are brilliant and I <3 you sooooooo much!!!! That is exactly the way I want to read it - all of those things were just justifications upon justifications. YAY for Mish!! You get like three gold stars for this one, and I'm going to adopt it as my personal cannon (and screw what Joss says! he's a poopie anyway).

[katekat]

Exactly! That's so very much the way they played it in S6. Now, of course, Joss came out in the commentary and said that he always intended for Spike to get his soul back, and of course Spike was actually going for his soul, and that's what's up with all the crazyvamprant crap in the basement in S7, but....

GRRR. He was an angry vamp! Not a "oh, i'll go get a soul" vamp! I suppose if you're a Spuffy shipper you go for the "he wanted it" option, and if you're not, you don't.

[dwg.livejournal.com]

On the flipside, I always loved that bit in Angel when the two of them are duking it out and Spike makes a point that he earned his soul, while Angel was just cursed with one.

I know in the series they make Spike out to be all speshul and one-of-a-kind in the vampire sense, but...eh...I think it's just in his character to make the best of what he's got. He's an opportunist - he's proved it time and again. So, he's saddled up with this soul, which isn't want he asked for, but he's going to make the most of it and if he can't get one thing, then maybe it'll get the other. In his case, well if he can't go back to hating Buffy, then maybe she'll learn to love him.

Which is how I justify Spike's crazy ranting in S7.

[jgracio.livejournal.com]

I read that scene the same way you did, but then went against it when Spike said he'd went for his soul, because if I had read it correctly then Spike post Soul would be lying, and I really didn't want that.

But some time later I sorta came to a conclusion on the whole soul thing. When a vampire gets a soul put in he stops being able to think like a vampire without a soul would, stops being able to feel like a souless vampire can. It's part of what drives them crazy.

So Souless!Spike could have wanted to just go back to being S2 Spike, but Souled!Spike can't understand that desire, because he doesn't even remember it that way, the soul doesn't let him.

Or something. It's a fanwank. :)

[aesiron.livejournal.com]

Huh. I just watched these episodes (and just woke up from falling asleep during the commentary of Grave) an hour or two ago and was actually watching Spike's scenes with the bait-and-switch in mind. How synchronous.

And while I've always accepted that he did indeed go looking for his soul as the misdirect is a staple of television, I do think you're onto something and really like jgracio's explanation above.

[rahirah]

There's also the point that if you assume that Spike didn't really want a soul, then the First Evil is lying to Spike when it mocks him for "trying to do the right thing" and asks him if he thought that getting a soul would solve all his problems.

[jgracio.livejournal.com]

Because really, if there's anything the FE is, is honest. :D

[rahirah]

What point is there in it lying to Spike at that juncture? If it wanted to taunt him, why not "Ha ha, you got stuck with a soul! Suffer, sucker!"

The thing is, while the whole soul story was absolutely, positively bungled by the writers, at some point, they decided that's what he wanted. Maybe it really was back in S6. Maybe it was over the summer. We'll never know for sure. But whenever, for whatever reason, they decided it, and it's canon now. Just like Dru being Spike's sire instead of Angelus. If you want to, you can come up with a scenario where Spike is lying or deluded, Lurky (who is probably on the evil side, judging by his contempt for Spike's having fallen from the path) is stupid enough to give a legendary dark warrior a prize that will turn him into a warrior for good when said dark warrior didn't want it in the first place, the First Evil is lying to Spike about his own motives for no reason, and Buffy, Giles, et al. are all so credulous and stupid that they fall for the whole thing.

I can also construct a scenario where Giles is really an alien robot. But there just doesn't seem much point in it. *g*