Question for all the B/G readers on my list...

[katekat]

After a short discussion with entrenous88 in comments the other day about B/G fic, I have a question/favor to ask of all of you:

What fics would you suggest to someone who is resistant to Buffy/Giles as a romantic pairing to kind of get them started?  Or, what fics do you think would convince someone that the pairing worked?  This is a slightly different list than those "must read" ones, and so I'm hoping to get suggestions y'all that maybe delve into the potential of B/G in more ways than the usual.

Not that I'm opposed to links to smut fics, actually, if they somehow also provide an interesting look at the two and why they're so perfect for each other.

So, how would you convince someone?  In fic links, I mean...

Comments

[xanzpet.livejournal.com]

Ooh! I'll be anxious to see what people say. I've tried to get into B/G, but I just can't get past my squick. I'm sure there is some great stuff out there, so I can't wait to see what people rec! ^__^

[katekat]

YAY! I hope people can come up with a bunch of links, and then, to be sure, i'll be posting what I think are the best of those... cuz i know a lot of people on the flist are totally squicked by it, and i'd like to kinda give y'all a reason to go for it, ya know? :D

[that_mireille]

a2zmom posted a list of B/G recs a little while ago (maybe a week?) in her LJ that were B/G stories she liked, as someone who does not normally like B/G. That might be a good place to start. (The two of the stories from that list that I've read (the AC Chapin story and the one by doyle_sb4, both of which are incredible) are the only two B/G stories I have ever liked, too, and I really can't stand Giles and Buffy in a romantic pairing.)

In general, I'd say if someone's resistant to a pairing, don't bother reccing them fic, but if they're asking for the recs, that list might be a good place to start.

[that_mireille]

And the list is here.

[lorelei-frolick.livejournal.com]

Ooh! I've read some of the stories on that list.
Yahtzee's "Destination Unknown" is definitely the best. I read it ages ago, before I was a B/G shipper and just looking for good Giles fic, and it just seemed totally natural to me.
I've also read "Alternative Lifestyle" by A. C. Chapin, and it is very good. I don't think it would necessarily convince someone though since the shippiness is between the totally AU Buffy and Giles.
The only other one I've read is "Electra." Would not recommend it for conversion purposes. I've written on my lj that I like stories that play up the age difference and have a bit of that element of wrongness, but still, I found this more disturbing than hot (which is what I think the author was probably going for anyways). It's the Joyce thing.

[katekat]

Hee! That is exactly what I was thinking about when I posted this - Entrenous had linked me to that list, and I discovered a couple I hadn't read, but I wondered if those of us who are actually in this part of the fandom can come up with some others too...

And I totally agree with you about it not being worth it when someone's resistant to the pairing, but sometimes I wonder if it's also because they just haven't read the right fic - but that's also because, for me, every pairing I've ever been resistant to has been broken down by reading a good fic that makes the pairing work ... I mean, I was completely squicked by Giles/Xander for the longest time... heck, Giles/Xander, Spike/Xander, Giles/Oz, Wes/Gunn, Willow/Angel, Angel/Xander... I was originally grossed out by 'em all. And now? lol. yeah, not so much.

[that_mireille]

Sometimes I think it's much, *much* harder for actual fans of the pairing to find things that will appeal to the non-fans.

For me, I can be convinced by good fic if it's a pairing I'd never considered or am just indifferent to. If it's a pairing I actively dislike... it's almost impossible for fic to convince me. (Especially if the reason for my dislike isn't, "I can't see this based on canon," but "I can see the subtext, and I still don't like it.") I can read it and think, "that's really well-written," but I still don't like the pairing and find it hard to enjoy the story. *g*

Still, I hope you find some good stuff. :)

[katekat]

Sometimes I think it's much, *much* harder for actual fans of the pairing to find things that will appeal to the non-fans.

I *absolutely* agree with you. For instance, I've seen Eliade's Subtleties on people's "what fics would you give to a newbie coming into fandom" lists - a fic that I personally think is absolutely FANTASTIC, but also not for the uninitiated.

On the other hand, I also like to have this fantasy that because so many are resistant to B/G, that someone else has done this before, and will have some good insights. It could happen, right? :D

Also, I really like the differentiations you make above between being uninitiated into the pairing and actively disliking the concept of it - and I definitely think that you're right. However, if there is a chance of convincing even one new good writer or good reader into my corner of the fandom.... i want to lure 'em with the high priced chocolate versions, you know?

[that_mireille]

Oh, I definitely don't blame you there. Find the good stuff. :)

I think it's a difference of why you don't like a pairing--if I think that (and let's just call a pairing Dick/Jane, because I don't want to get into specifics--this is about a lot more than just Buffy/Giles) just wouldn't work (for whatever reason), then a good fic that shows how their canonical relationship turns into a romantic one is likely to convince me. On the other hand, if I can believe that Dick and Jane might fall in love/have sex/live happily ever after, but it would be something I wouldn't want to see... then there's nothing to "convince" me of--I see exactly what the shippers see, but I don't like it. *g* (Kind of like not liking a canon pairing, maybe?)

But yes, if people are in that first category, the right fic will convince them.

[elizabuffy.livejournal.com]

I have no clue, as I don't actually read them, but perhaps friendship fics are the way to go? Altho', honestly, I'm so burnt out of the B/G world, it's hard for me to get excited over it.

~e!

[katekat]

yeah, i was thinking about that, but you know me and friendship fics - i'm always like 'whats the point?' :D

[sl-podcast.livejournal.com]

The thing that convinced me wasn't the fic itself but L_F's essay on Giles and her explanation about why B/G is plausible.

[katekat]

L_F? linkies? pretty please? I'd love to include that too - especially if it convinced you!

[sl-podcast.livejournal.com]

lorelei_frolick,

http://lorelei-frolick.livejournal.com/13539.html

[katekat]

ooo! thank you! that's great, and i didn't get to read it when it was originally posted.

[lorelei-frolick.livejournal.com]

Actually, I don't think I wrote about the plausibility of B/G in my character analysis. I did link to the Buffy/Giles Shipper Manifesto (http://community.livejournal.com/ship_manifesto/10116.html) by someone called jedi_penguin in my essay, and that does a very thorough job of defending the ship and its plausibility.
If you're trying to ease someone into accepting Buffy/Giles I do think my character analysis may be a good thing to start with because of a couple of the arguments I put forward in it.
Specifically, I argue is that Giles is not an authority figure and that he never had any authority over Buffy. It seems that the perceived power imbalance between Buffy and Giles (Giles being an authority figure over Buffy) is one of the main reasons people get squicked by the ship.
Something else I talk about in the essay is how Giles perceives Buffy as a hero. My interpretation of his character development is that he actually comes to idealize her in a way, maybe even to the point of putting her on a pedestal. If my analysis succeeds in convincing someone that Giles loved Buffy in that kind of adoring way it may be a step towards getting them to accepting the plausibility of B/G.
My sister, blueanddollsome, wrote a S7 ficlet (http://blueanddollsome.livejournal.com/36281.html#cutid4) recently about Gile's perception of Buffy in which Giles does idolize her to an extent. It's kind of an illustration of the argument I made in my essay. And it can be read as either a hippy fic, or not. It can go either way.

[lorelei-frolick.livejournal.com]

Something else nonfiction that I wrote that may be of use is a shippy analysis of Giles' Restless dream (http://forum.buffyworld.com/showpost.php?p=1447122&postcount=39) that I posted a while ago in the buffyworld.com forums.
I suggest it because someone gave me rep points for it saying, "Very very very good post. I don't ship B/G myself...but I suddenly find it way less ooky."
So it worked for them.

[katekat]

OOOh! That's fabulous too! Thank you so much! And that's exactly the type of thing I'm looking for.

It's been ages since I've read anything about dream work, and that whole string makes me want to go back and read more Buffy theory. Do you by chance know if there are any archives online that have critical articles?

[lorelei-frolick.livejournal.com]

I don't know of any archives, but The Online International Journal of Buffy Studies (http://slayageonline.com/) has 22 issues worth of academic papers on Buffy, and each issue also has links to recommended articles that are good reading. I also really like The Annotated Buffy (http://www.justinleader.com/annotatedbuffy/). It has the transcripts of the first 43 episodes extensively annotated. Reading the notes is really interesting. And you'd want to check out their links page too.
You may very well be familiar with those sites already, but that's all I have to recommend.

[katekat]

first off, thanks for the summary - i didn't have the opportunity to read your original post, but will definitely put it on the list simply because you do make a case for a number of things I think people who write other characters don't think about when they think about Giles (just as Willow so often becomes a pale shadow of all of her contradicting self in many B/G fics, Giles seems to be stereotyped in certain ways in non-Giles-ship fics)

And thanks for the link to blueanddollsome's fic too! I haven't had the chance to read either your or her work, but will save it for the airplane flight.

[lorelei-frolick.livejournal.com]

You shouldn't have said you haven't read either of our work. Now you've gone and awakened the shameless self-promoter deep inside me.

If you have extra time on the flight, I really recommend that you read blueanddollsome's "Stalwart and True" (http://www.livejournal.com/tools/memories.bml?user=blueanddollsome&keyword=Stalwart+and+True&filter=all). It's not shippy, but it is Giles-centric. It's won a couple of awards and garnered such rave reviews on ff.net as, "Pretty. Darn. Awesome. I'm still speechless. And crying my eyes out, thank you very much," "Thank you. In some small way, you bandaged the wound that's been festering ever since Joss Whedon destroyed Giles half-way through season 7," and "Holy crap, this is a good story." She's also working on a B/G WIP that I really like called "Fated" (http://www.livejournal.com/tools/memories.bml?user=blueanddollsome&keyword=Fated&filter=all).

I am much less prolific than my sister -- though I did write this huge post-Chosen/NFA BtVS/Ats thing last year that's so close to being done, but then I got burned out. So I have written a lot, only it's all concentrated in this one piece that an only be found on my ugly, messy website, and is in script form, so not many people read it. But I digress... Anyhoo, the one fic that I've finished, I would actually also recommend for the purposes of convincing someone of the plausibility of B/G because I work up to the relationship gradually and deal with the implications of their age difference. I'm in the middle of giving it a rewrite, so the first eight chapters (http://www.livejournal.com/tools/memories.bml?user=lorelei_frolick&keyword=fanfic&filter=all) (they aren't that long) are on my lj. If you happen to end up liking it enough to want to finish it without waiting for the rewritten chapters, you can read what happens next on ff.net (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2791969/10/) or my website (http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/banduraqueen/banduraqueen/WI10.html).

*shameless self-promoter goes back into hibernation*

[blueanddollsome.livejournal.com]

Shameless self-promotion includes pimping my fic? Did we finally merge into one person without me noticing it?

;-)

[lorelei-frolick.livejournal.com]

It happened yesterday, at 3:14 in the afternoon. How could you not have noticed?

[glimmergirl.livejournal.com]

I've been way to slackery in my fandom reading lately to have any recs, so I can't help with that. :(

But, okay, let's say I actually could make recs, I'd need to know *why* the person is being resistant to the idea of a romantic/erotic relationship between Buffy and Giles. I think there'd be a difference if, for example, they don't like m/f pairings, or they see BG as pseudo-incestuous, or they hate/don't find sexually attractive either Buffy or Giles. Or, and I think this might be a factor, too, they don't like traditional fanonical representations of the pairing and suspect that's how they will be characterized in most BG fic.

So. I don't know. I guess this speaks more to my own interest in ways of reading relationships/characters than anything else. :)

[katekat]

I've been slackery with fandom links too - but it's ok, if you think of something older that's probably better anyway. It doesn't have to be published recently, seriously.

And not to complicate things, but are there certain fics you would rec for each category? What would you suggest for someone who feels their relationship is pseudo-incestuous? I don't think it's possible to overcome not being attracted to both of them in some way, but if someone wasn't, are there fics you think might change their mind about one or the other? And if the person has always read slash or femslash, is there a fic that you could suggest to possibly charm them with het writing?

I'd actually say most of the resistance I've encountered has been either a) because they see the canonical relationship as a father/daughter binary or b) because they dislike either Buffy or Giles.

And I know that I'm coming at this from an oblique angle, because I'm someone who actually likes the pairing, asking others who like the pairing to suggest fics that, in a sense, defend the legitimacy of the pairing. This seems to be something most of the bigger ships don't have to do - or at least, i have not seen it as often. At the same time, I think it's possible to suggest a fic that is so charming, or so well done (in that ineffable aesthetic sense) that it can charm someone into believing in the pairing. At least, that's what has happened to me with a number of pairings, and, naively or not, I like to believe that there are others out there like me, just waiting to be presented with the story that will interrupt their expectations and instead draw them into a new view of the fandom.

[lorelei-frolick.livejournal.com]

Siren Voices Floating Round Thee (http://www.djinnslair.com/SirenVoicesRoundThee.htm) by Djinn (http://www.djinnslair.com/)is my favourite B/G fic (that's not by me or my sister) because it really does the character development work to make the ship believable. I think that also makes it a great fic for converting people. Also, the author herself (assuming Djinn is a "her"), according to her website, was uncomfortable with the pairing, but wrote this story and made it work. Now she's apparently fond of the pairing and has written two sequels.

[antennapedia.livejournal.com]

This is a good recommendation, because it deals with the issues I imagine some people approaching B/G might have with the concept. Though I sort of share Glim's list of questions: what's the trouble they're having with the idea? On what grounds do they need persuasion?

I had a similar journey with Giles/Xander and Giles/Anya. I can point to the story that hit me with the clue bat on G/A, and I think I can remember what did it for G/X, too. For G/B it might have been the Transformations Quartet, but I'm not sure that story will work for everybody.

Kim Wylie's Sew the Chicken (http://www.wickedsky.com/gileszone/archive/fic/fic_kimwylie_sewthechicken1.html) series is a left-field approach to the pairing, with snarky Giles. Or there's Susan MD's "A Birthday Gift for Giles" (http://www.wickedsky.com/gileszone/archive/fic/fic_susan_abirthdaygift.html)

[katekat]

I threw the ball back at Glim and asked her if she knew of fics that would cover some of the bases or all of them (yes, i know, i'm totally being a pill... on the other hand, there are all manner of ways of resisting a narrative, and if a fic addresses one it might not address others). Also, in the sense that I'd like to compile a list not just for a specific person, but for any number of readers who might be willing to contemplate the idea of B/G.

And I was the same exact way with G/X, which is also why I ask the question...

Love both Sew the Chicken and A Birthday Gift (a fic I've recommended often). Thanks for the suggestions lady! If anything else occurs to you, feel free to come back!

[katekat]

Oh, thank you! I've read that one ages ago but had forgotten it, and remember the author commentary on it. It's definitely the kind of thing I was thinking of!

[scratchingpost1.livejournal.com]

http://bripper.drakeleather.com/Snips_01.shtml

[katekat]

interesting choice for a rec - thank you lady!

[scratchingpost1.livejournal.com]

It was the third or fourth B/G fic I ever read. The first few I read were aweful, and I was about to give up and move on to other pairings. When I read this story, I fell in love with B/G. It's the first fanfic story that I truly loved.

[boundbyash.livejournal.com]

I haven't been reading B/G that long, as I used to think of it more as a father/daughter thing, but now I'm completely won over. I read a fic called "Conjuring" by Rari Cross that I thought was really great, and looks at the B/G relationship in a new way, with great character developments. The link is here: http://www.buffygiles.net/c_nz/conjuring.htm Just in case it doesn't work, it can be found on the Buffy/Giles Fanfiction Archive.

[katekat]

Oh thank you! This is one of my fav fics, and it's been a while - it's definitely going on the list.

(and the link totally worked, not to worry!)

[boundbyash.livejournal.com]

Sorry for the 2nd post, but I've been thinking some more. Originally, I actively disliked the pairing because I found it somewhat incestuous. I think there are a lot of others who think the same, and to these people I would recommend reading B/G stories based on Seaon 6 and after as they tend to have a more mature Buffy. They certainly won me over, 'cause I love B/G now. I just think it's important to let you know that even "active dislikers" of the pairing can be won over; you just need to know why they dislike it and then find stories that deal with that.

[katekat]

Thank you so much for coming back and leaving this comment! Not only because I really appreciate the suggestion to offer older fic at first (that totally makes sense), but because I've gotten a lot of feedback from others that I can't change minds, and you're one of the first who's encouraged me! I also had a similar experience with B/G and with other pairings, which is why I firmly believe reading good fic can convince someone the pairing is fun, but it's really really nice to know I'm not the only one. thanks again!

[dara-starscream.livejournal.com]

It's not a romace-type story, but I think it's a great start for fic generally.

http://www.chicagostation.com/buffic/observare.htm

For romantic-type stuff, I'd suggest either The Bond series, or the Transformations series.
-BJ

[beatrice_otter]

A Mile in His Moccasins

[mishloran.livejournal.com]

The main reason why I was "hmmmm?!" about B/G was the age difference, and Giles' relationship to Buffy as her Watcher, not her lover, but once you get past the Buffy-in-high-school season type set up, and that weird but awesome episode where Giles has to drug her because of The Council, I think it becomes acceptable for a B/G relationship. Some fics i have read (probably Glim's, or Glim's reccs?), have a next-level-of-Watcher/Slayer-relationship relationship going on, and I believe that is the best way to get into this particular pairing. Because if it's written well, and it is written albeit a bit reluctantly (I like the idea that Giles is a bit "... should I be doing this? But it will form a closer bond, blah blah blah, Reason, blah" and Buffy is all "Watcher? Mmmmm. Gilesian Watcher." etc), then it is Good and Gooooood. Okay, that might be a personal kink of mine? I also like the fics in which Buffy has a big generally unrequited lust for Giles (and sometimes this is requited at the end of the fic!). They make me smile because they are usually cute.

So I have no fics to link to. But I have a bit of blither about why I like B/G, and a cute icon.

[blueanddollsome.livejournal.com]

Personally, I think non-fiction is more effective for this type of thing. I'm more likely to go for a certain ship, or interpretation of a character, if I've read something that explains the logic behind it in a reasonable way. That B/G shipper manifesto by jedi_penguin does a fantastic job of debunking objections to the ship.

[jans-intentions.livejournal.com]

Hi, you've been nominated in round #6 of the forbiddenawards here: http://community.livejournal.com/forbiddenawards/34679.html

Please let me know if you accept.

Thank you and congratulations.

[katekat]

OMG! Thank you so much sweetie! Of course I accept!

[wiccagirl24.livejournal.com]

i read this thread the other day, and found a fic over at allthejells that was just posted and would be a good one. It's called bite sized chunks, and has Dawn catching Buffy and Giles kissing. The Giles/Dawn conversation that follows could serve as a B/G shipper tp B/G nonshipper conversation. Plus the language is beautiful.

http://community.livejournal.com/allthejellies/362434.html?view=1385922&style=mine#t1385922